Palestinian factions agree to recognize Israel
Tuesday, June 27th, 2006 - 10:10am
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/27/palestinians.israel.ap/index.html
Potential Big Step Forward? Can civilization now continue in the Gaza Strip? Will the political discourse continue on a diplomatic level and in coffee shops and universities where it belongs?
Or will a cheap mortar round into a market lead to tanks and attack choppers blowing away a Palestinian chantytown in retaliation, leading everyone to forget this day like other similar days in the past?
Make discussion go now.
I'll fire aimlessly if you don't come out!
This certainly needed to happen before any other progress can be made. Though if this is for real. I would now look to see the very militant folks turn on the palestinians leaders.
Go for their eyes boo
We can only hope this leads somewhere. The only problem is people that have power BECAUSE of the fighting won't like it, and all it takes, like mentioned, is one mortar.
A big problem is that the Palestinian security didn't do enough to capture those types of people. If they started stringing up these guys, the Israeli people would be more leniant when it did happen.
I don't think I've ever said this sentence before, but man would I love to hump that butterfly.-- KrazyTaco
One phone call and you're melting like butter over my kettle pop. -- Edwin to Mex
2005 GWJFFL2 Champion
Its kinda hard to do this when the Israelies destroy the Palestinian security's infrastructure with regular intervals, attacking police stations+++. Putting in place all sorts of rules at gun point, that means that the Palestinian security forces can't really operate effeciently.... One more thing taking over more and more lands from the Palestinian ppl, erroding the support the ppl, to the Palestinians that the world community can deal with. aka Abbas.
Its getting to the point that the only way to solve this is for a international force to go in expel Israel completely from the Westbank and Gaza, and keep the sides seperated. This force needs to be able to use deadly force against both sides, when threatened. (When Norway had peacekeepers in Lebanon Israely artillery fired on the Norwegian soldiers at regular intervalls.) When these peacekeepers have been there for about 20 years, maybe the sides will be ready to talk.
Hi btw i am a new member but i have been reading these forums for ages
Xilo
I think Israel start negotiating with the Palestinians instead of destroying the security infrastructure right after the USA start negotiating with el-Kaida instead of blowing them up acording to their wanted list.
This is exactly the reason why Israel refuse to let any forign security forces in (like most sovrign nations). Israelis don't like getting killed and putting another faction (there are about 4 militant factions already there) in the palestinian teritories is like trying to stop a fire with gasoline. Israel has alot of distrust for the UN after its soldiers helpd Hizbolla abduct 3 of its soldiers who eventually got executed.
There was once some European security force at the Egyptian border but they pulled out after they got harassed by the Palestinian population.
Recently 2 Israelis got abducted by the palestinian: an active soldier and a civilian . Israel decided not to negotiate their release and holds the Palestian government responsible for their safty since at least one of them (the soldier) was abducted by the militant branch of Hamas while it's political branch is curently in power. The Hamas leaders stated clearly in 3 languages in the press that they want the abducted soldier released (the civilian was abducted a day later). I guess they are afraid of what Israel would do to their infrastracture despite the fact they don't recognize it.
So far Israel destroyed 3 bridges and a power conversion station which shut down electricity for most of the Gaza strip and may have interupted the water supply (I guess they'll have to pump it by hand for now).
Since I'm an Israeli I have a biased opinion against the Palestinians which is driven by my will not to blow up ,and I don't care it's at someone else's expense. I am well aware that the Palestinian civilians are suffering from the terror organization .The terrorist provoke the IDF to retaliate, and sometimes have accidents with explosives. Other than that they hold public execution for people who are suspected of colaborating with the Israel (for similar reference read about the Reign of Terror) . Israel simply decided there is no partner for peace and seperating from the Palestinians is the best course of action. Hopefully Israel would close passages from and to the Palestinian teritories and let Egypt and Jordan provide the services Israel is giving the palestinians today (import/export, highly profesinal healthcare).
So far the Palestinian terrorists' response for the Israeli threats was with a threat of using chemical and biological weapons on their rockets. They also threat to execute the hostages. Since israel know that unfortuantly the hostages are as good as dead if they are left at the mercy of the Palestinians then it decided to give the palestinians a progressive ultimatum instead of negotiating which would just get the hostages killed. By not trying to negotiate the safe return of the hostages Israel turned them from a bragaining chip into extra bagage .
How?? By building a wall that makes it impossible for the palistinians to become a nation, and build up those services themself..... Look critically, if u can, at the route that wall is taking....... its annecation, without having to take on the ppl. By promise not to extend enclaves in the West Bank to the international community, but still you continue building ...... Either annex the West Bank formaly or withdraw completely. Alternativly build the wall on your side of the border....
I am quoting myself here... sorry about that since i would like to extend on the subject. I know alot of ppl that served in Lebanon as Norwegian UN soldiers. When they went down there almost all of them had strong Israely sympaties.. when they got back. almost all had changed view..... to a anti israely stance, pro Palestinian stance.. Why is that u think....
One more thing. Niseg how do u propose to solve this then? You know as well as me that the wall wont work. You know that the palestinians get more desperate each day, they are stuck in their ghettos with no hope of getting anywhere. and desperate ppl, means that the extremist will get ample recruits. While the moderate palestinians supports gets eroded. Do you really think you can solve this yourself? By talking rationaly to the other side?
Perhaps he is proposing a more "final" solution?
There is only an up or down--up to a man's age-old dream, the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order--or down to the ant heap totalitarianism,... those who would trade our freedom for security have embarked on this downward course.
And the thread is subtley dead...
Unfortunately, if I slash my wrist with my lightsaber it cauterizes instantly. - PurEvil on emo Star Wars plots.
The Israel vs. Palestinian threads always remind me of Greece vs. Turkey threads on the internet. And the Pakistan vs. India threads. You pretty much know the acid is going to start flying by about the third post.
If the palestinian govt could (or would) crack down on violent groups the wall would not be necessary. If people in the next town were constantly shooting at your houses, etc, you would want and need a wall as well.
Look in the US, people want a wall built on the Mexican border and although illegal, the illegal immigrants don't strap themselves with explosives.
Really, it is tough to judge unless you are there and have to be searched whenever you want to go to a cafe. If we had to have an armed guard at every Starbucks corner would want to try to solve the problem?
I don't think I've ever said this sentence before, but man would I love to hump that butterfly.-- KrazyTaco
One phone call and you're melting like butter over my kettle pop. -- Edwin to Mex
2005 GWJFFL2 Champion
I've just read a bunch of stuff on the news (unordered):
- Israel still refuse to negotiate while the abducters are demanding the release of 1000 prisoners just to give information about him.
- Israel bombed the PM's office to signal to him It holds him responsible.
- A USA insurance company is gonna pay for the transformers Israel bombed and the Israeli gov't is considering supplying the palestinian with power to minimize the humanitarian efect of this operation.
- The UN (which Israel doesn't care about since it declared its independance) criticized Israel for it's military operation (as usual)
- Ehud Olmert (Israel's Prime Minister) stoped the invasion to Beit Hanun (northern Gaza strip) to prevent civilian casualties. As far as I've read it was only delayed (the population got a map where they shouldn't be present) and the IDF may level the town in the process of preventing rocket fire on Shederot and Ashkelon .
So
Collective punishment is okey.......? Thats what I see is happening. Some ppl. abduct/take prisoner a soldier(different views i know)..... Lets bomb the living sh*t out of all the palistinians to try getting him back. Innocent ppl. have already died in hospitals+++ because of distrupted powersupply/watersupply, + foodsupply. I am tempted to bring out a a very tasteless word atm, starting with H...
But again when will the palistinians learn...... If they only went after soldiers, they wouldnt be terrorists, but freedom fighters.....Thats the only reason the world opinion is allowing this atm. + USA that is the only country that has the tools to resolve this conflict, by forcing a solutions down on both sides. Would also help out alot, winning USA support regaring their "War on Terrorism".
Nope the World has the tools the resolve this conflict. Its just that the World doesn't actually want to really do anything. They just want to sit around and complain about the US and everything they do. See if the World actually got involved, they couldn't complain about the US any more.
Xilo, I'm happy to see you posting here (all the way from Norway), and another opinion is always welcome! But please, clean up your English. We're not grammar nazis here, but Internet shorthand like "ppl" and "atm", as well as poor spelling, tends to be frowned on. See the Code of Conduct, Item #4 for guidelines.
"Today's Tom Sawyer, he gets high on you, Kat. You." - Haakon7
My Website v. 3.0
Thank you for the welcome
.... Some habbits are hard to break, having been active on several forums/IRC servers for quite some time now..... I will try to do better in my next post......
Well the US support to Israel is what keeps this conflict going, since you are supporting Israel with wast amounts of money at the moment. Threathen to withdraw that support and Israel will have to compromize. If they do not, they will then have no way to pay for the upkeep of their present army/society. The rest of the world do not have that option, and we all know how "toothless" trade blocades++ is..... However sadly i don't think this will ever happen because of how US politics work, with all the lobby groups+++.
This also means that Middle East will never settle down i am afraid, because of the symbolic value most Arabs put to the Israely/Palestinian conflict. Solve that conflict and the US will get alot less friction/resistance in that area.
One more thing. A couple of years ago i was attending a informal meeting with a Norwegian politician/peacedealer. He is one of Norways most respected politicians(across partylines as well) and was heavily engaged in securing the last real peacedeal "The Oslo agreement", so he has got intimate knowledge of the situation. On a direct question from on how to solve the conflict he said... US need to threathen to close down their support of the Israel, and force them out of the territories occupied in 1967. Then the world community needs to put a neutral force in place, to separate the sides.. This force needs to be equiped to handle its mission, and reply with force to agreesions from both sides. It also needs to stay in place for at least 10-20 years until the parties has settled down and are ready to seriously negotiate. He then said quote "Both sides are mad, at the moment, and unable to settle this on their own"
I tend to agree with him.......
Arafat was offered almost everything he wanted back in '99-'00 and he did not take it. They offered him over 90% of the land from 1967 (I believe it was everything except some settlements), a capital in East Jerusalem, everything but the right of return for refugees. And he did not take it. Did the Norwegian negotiator mention this? Did he forget to toss in that Arafat would not compromise either?
Playing WoW as: Vilius (70 NE Druid)
The US will not stop support for Israel, over the last 5+ years alot of the HUGE corps in the US have a lot of business interests and offices, etc in Israel now.
Also agree with Mayfield, at the meeting he was offered pretty much everything and Arafat refused.
I don't think I've ever said this sentence before, but man would I love to hump that butterfly.-- KrazyTaco
One phone call and you're melting like butter over my kettle pop. -- Edwin to Mex
2005 GWJFFL2 Champion
Look at the last sentence/quote on my last post. That was what he said.... This is a politician, with friends on both sides of the fence........ Neither side has clean hands here.....
About that settlement Arafat was offered....... You do know that that would have meant that all the Palestinians refugees, that lives on the West bank, Gaza Jordan and Lebanon, would have lost their international recognized claim to be able to return to their homes? This is one of the reasons why Arafat couldnt take that settlement,(I personally think he should have taken the deal). He would have lost his support in Gaza and West Bank very fast if he did..... The status of these refugees needs to be solved as well.
Well the US is going to loose more soldiers every day because of this....... Also in my personal opinion you havent got a shoot in hell winning your " War on Terror" It makes me sad because the US is a close friend of Norway, and it means that Norwegian lives will be lost as well.. I have alot of personal friends that are deployed in Afganistan at the moment, and i do fear for their life, fighting for a lost cause.
For you to win this war, you need to give the arabs and palestinians hope again, or kill them all...
If you think Israel is ever going to give the millions of refugee's the right to return to Israel, you also believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth fairy. It is never going to happen, because if Israel lets them back the Jewish will be in the minority.
Playing WoW as: Vilius (70 NE Druid)
Give them hope? You mean give the extremist what they want so they can create Islamic paradises all over the Middle East? We saw what good that was in Afghanistan. The Palestinians had hope, and then they elected Hamas. It's certainly sad, but you reap what you sow. Do you think we would be where we are at this very moment in time there if Hamas had not dug a tunnel, ambushed the soldiers, and taken one away?
I assume you prescribe to the Spanish method of solving the problem with the Islamic extremist -- just give in? Personally, I think we have a very good chance at winning the "War on Terror." It will start when the people of the Middle East wake up and realize that these people don't have their interests in mind at all. I'm not advocating that the US does either, but when we routinely have condemnation of extremist actions, then change could occur.
Before that happens though, there's no way I would ever agree to not keeping the pressure on these groups. Do I think it has been done 100% correctly up until now? No way, but that doesn't mean we won't adapt and get better at it.
Palestinians prefer victimhood to statehood.
Israel completely evacuated Gaza, dismantled all its military installations, removed all of its soldiers, destroyed all Israeli settlements and expelled all 7,000 Israeli settlers. Israel then declared the line that separates Israel from Gaza to be an international border. Gaza is the first independent Palestinian territory ever.
And what have the Palestinians done with this independence? They have used their freedom to launch rockets at civilians in nearby Israeli towns and stage raids into pre-1967 Israel.
I think we need to have a bit of a history lesson about the region.
Israel was legally created out of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WWI. The few inhabitants thought of themselves as Syrians. The legitimacy of Israel arises from the Balfour Declaration issued by the British, who had mandate over the area given by the League of Nations. Arabs from surrounding countries were lured to "Palestine" by the industry and prosperity that the Jews brought to the region.
In 1947, the British resigned their mandate and the UN mandated partitioning the territory. The Jews accepted the partition. The Arabs dismissed it out of hand and declared war on Israel. Five Arab countries invaded Israel. Arab residents left the region to get out of the way of the invasion, hoping to return to an area now free of Jews. That is the source of your "refugee problem".
If the Arabs had accepted the original UN partition plan, there would have been a state of Palestine for close to 60 years.
By the way, let's talk about the refugees for a second. The refugees are unique in history. Throughout history, people have been displaced by conflict. Following WWII, millions of Germans were expelled from Poland, Czechoslovakia, and the surrounding regions. When the British withdrew from the Indian subcontinent, millions had to flee or were driven from their homes. Millions upon millions of people have had to flee one place and been assimilated and absorbed into new countries. It is only the Palestinians who, for almost sixty years have been considered "refugees". Surrounding Arab countries refuse to integrate them for political reasons: to keep them as a festering sore in the area and make any solution of the Arab/Israeli conflict impossible.
There is no 'right of return'. After two generations, the 650,000 Arabs that fled the area voluntarily have swelled to close to 5 million. If they were allowed to 'return' to Israel, the country would cease to exist as a Jewish state. Israel is not going to commit demographic suicide by ever granting a 'right of return'.
Now that the Palestinians have been given what they said they always wanted, a state of their own, perhaps they should spend more time making a country and less time trying to tear down their neighbor.
"It's so much easier to suggest solutions when you don't know too much about the problem." - Malcolm Forbes
I'm afraid what I have to say next will be misinterpreted, but I've read enough above to see that it bears saying.
Irrespective of who thinks they have a casus belli against whomever, I am still unconvinced that either side has a convincing case that their goals are significantly alligned with American interest to warrant anything more than a "sucks to be you" from the US State Department and a contract to purchase humanitarian supplies. The Middle East is full of extinct societies. In a thousand years, no one will miss two more -- especially not the United States of America.
Israel currently possesses the military hardware and personnel necessary to put an end to their "Palestinian problem". Much of that has to do with our support of them. The past is past. Whatever solution (final or otherwise) they come to doesn't matter much to me so long as it is sufficiently divorced from American influence and support (ie: American military and economic aid to Israel stops immediately). They should get a hearty "wish you well", "thanks for all the olives", and a certificate (suitable for framing) stating that they are a sovereign nation and should start taking the full effect of their sovereign decisions.
The fact that we are paying, in blood and treasure, for their history is a testimony to the failure of Liberal Interventionism.
There is only an up or down--up to a man's age-old dream, the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order--or down to the ant heap totalitarianism,... those who would trade our freedom for security have embarked on this downward course.
When is a life not worth a life? Which is worse? Thousands of lives lost in a matter of days or months, or that same number lost spread over 10 years?
I would like to think that a 10's or 100's of thousands spread over 10 years would be the lesser of 2 evils because there would be more time for the possibility of a good % of these thousands to not be victims anymore.
A pulling of support and the near certainty of a "final" result leaves no chance for the thousands bound to be erased.
They should take a page from native americans and build the irresistable to Israeli equivalent to casinos.
Being fangoriously devoured by a gelatinous monster.