New SGA Posting on Loot System
Tuesday, April 11th, 2006 - 11:37am
Hi guys, I know there was a little surprise for us when we went to MC last week, and today the CoA proposed a new loot system
Quote:
Hey guys.....first I'd like to apologize for the last minute loot changes...believe me when I say we did it for everyones best interest. Dusty and I have gamed a long time and know for a fact how things go.....first big trip in MC and people will show back up that we haven't seen in MONTHS...no way is this fair to those of you who have been here doing all the work (having all the fun) that got us into MC.Dusty and I are working on a neat lil program that we tested out in UBRS last night with some of our guildies and Badboybob and Cicsemper. Those that did express opinions liked the new program. It's a basic point system...can set it how we want...ie 1 point for every 15 min in raid....when something drops you want you send Dusty a tell with a bid...you can find your points at anytime by sending him a tell /raidpoints. Don't throw a bunch of questions back at me atm please. What we will do is get with....Pal, Garrockas, Leaping...and do a lil run so they can see first hand how it works...and EVERYONE is welcome into the vent channel at any time to discuss it. - Ziltaura
Discuss amongst yourselves... btw I won't be back on till 9 PM CST so I'll miss all the talk.
"In the depth of my soul there is a wordless song." -- Khalil Gibran
How is this different from DKP?
(I'm not an active GWJ WoW guy, just legitimately curious)
It's what you might call "Naive DKP" ... if they're going to use a point system they'd be well advised to use zero-sum DKP or a variant to keep it fair.
WAR: Coda, Archmage, Vortex <Unguilded>
Here's a pretty comprehensive idea of what DKP is.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Dragon_Kill_Points
I had to look it up as well seeing as there's so many variations of DKP.
"In the depth of my soul there is a wordless song." -- Khalil Gibran
No DKP/whatever the hell this is called is why I like GWJ and liked the SGA. This to me is a bullsh*t system. Ok I'm a mage and i've been in the raid say for 3 bosses... i've helped kill these three bosses... the third drops a shiney cloth item and you're telling me I can't Fing roll on it? My comment to that is as follows... edited for internet niceness... "SCREW *(replace this word) YOU BUDDY!". I think this will be the end of Bounce on SGA raids the first time I'm not allowed to roll on something because "I'm a point or 2 behind someone else".
The ONLY fair rolling system to me is all mages roll on a mage item, warriors and pallies on Plate, etc.
WOW: Bounce
I'm not even high enough to go on these, but I'm not liking the idea.
On the other hand, this week I counted 12 level 60s on this week at the same time from GWJ Alliance. Roll in Peec(if they fix rogues) and I and some of the newer recruits that are levelling fast and except for the 40-man, we ought to be able to do GWJ-only raiding awfully soon.
P.S. Saw you in AV last night Strekos. It was too chaotic for me to find you to suicide on, but I tried.
"And my son, too, thinks everything is a launchpad, every bug a meal, and every sunny day a reason to take all your clothes off and roll around in the grass." - rabbit
Having read the last post by dusty I hate this even more... So now its a private bidding thing? And if I bid higher than the rest by say 50 points or something I loose the points to get the item PLUS 50? that sucks. Pending what happens at any vent meeting tonight (which I of course can't attend) we'll see if I go on any more SGA raids. I have some nice lower level characters sitting arround that are fully rested and waiting for me to play and have fun with. Or theres always the cancel thing, save 3 months of sub money and buy Oblivion.
WOW: Bounce
Bounce, I'm sure Leap will argue our case to the fullest as we are a casual guild and a large part of the MC experience. I'm not sure how the new system will work, but I do think that it will be fine tuned and probably won't go into effect as it's currently presented.
Right now I trust that CoA is doing it's best to be fair, but if I see evidence that something is skewed in a particular groups favor, I wouldn't be opposed, as long as it's a guild decision, to sit out future raids. Please don't jump the gun and stop playing Bounce, last night was fun, although LBRS isn't as challenging anymore now that we've done it 5-man with little problems. I know Lys and Bal thoroughly enjoy playing with you and your bro and it would suck losing another mage to that cursed Oblivion.
Let's let Leap see what the new changes are all about and if he feels that they are/aren't fair we can proceed from there.
"In the depth of my soul there is a wordless song." -- Khalil Gibran
WAR: Coda, Archmage, Vortex <Unguilded>
Leap bought a 360 this past weekend... along with Oblivion.
I second the recommendation for zero-sum DKP. Its what we currently use, and I don't see how a system could be more fair. There is no bidding. Item drops have a set value, and newcomers to a raid are not automatically lowest on the loot priority list.
Everyone starts at 0 points. Say you down Luci and the Felheart Gloves drop with a value of 40 points. The warlock that wins those goes down to -40 points, and the 40 points he spent are divided among all the participants in the raid giving each person 1 point if its a full raid.
Next run any warlocks that were there to down Luci before have priority on loot with their 1 point because they've obviously put in more time than the newcomer, but the newcomer starts at 0 and the lock that had already won loot is still at -40. This makes it where if you put in your time you will get loot. Those with 1 point are equal and roll off for the item if they are interested. If all warlocks with 1 point get loot, next up would be the newcomer with 0 points. It is basically a queue system where you determine your placement in the queue by how many raids you show up for and thus your contribution toward advancing the raid and making it successful.
You will not find a successful endgame guild that just goes with a strait /random roll on everything. Its just not fair to people that do put in the time each week wiping over and over to learn a boss to simply lose out on a particular item to someone that comes in for their first MC raid and happens to get a lucky roll.
I agree that the proposed SGA bidding system does sound undesirable, but I can't speak highly enough for zero-sum as it has made loot arguments pretty much nonexistant.
WAR- Iron Rock - Cigaro/Engineer, Maersk/Witch Hunter
This looks like an interesting variant that has some characteristics of DKP while retaining some our own casual "if I'm on the raid, I'm contributing" philosophy:
"And my son, too, thinks everything is a launchpad, every bug a meal, and every sunny day a reason to take all your clothes off and roll around in the grass." - rabbit
I also looked at the list for "points" I'm pretty sure I've been on more than 3 raids with SGA.
WOW: Bounce
Gees Bounce, buy a punching bag or something to get rid of some of that aggro you have! I'm not crazy about a DKP system of any sort either. However, I do recall a time when a nice shiny cloth item dropped in a GWJ raid that you wanted and a new GWJer won it on his first raid. You weren't thrilled about it but since its all in our guild you were cool about it in the end. In SGA we aren't playing with just GWJ as there is 4 other guilds filled with people I never met before. I would not be so happy if a non-GWJer won a Felheart/Nemisis item on his very first raid with SGA just because he rolled higher than me. Who's to say I'll ever even see that guy again? Or worse, what if next raid another warlock item drops and again I lose due to a bad roll to the same guy? Is that fair to me? So I can see the need for some sort of DKP system. If you read the details of the system Dusty is talking about, it would allow you to go into negative points. So even if you didn't attend every raid you would still have a shot at the item. I'm not crazy about secret bidding though. I'd rather have the chance to out bid someone if I really wanted the item. Anyway, lets see what system they put into place before we start to cancle our accounts!
I've never met a beer I didn't like.
No Bounce! The Duck and I are almost high enough to raid...don't leave us!
That said, I've skimmed various threads and things about raid rolling, and it just left my head spinning. Pretty much, people will just have to tell me when I'm allowed to roll on stuff, I think.
*Legion* wrote:
I've been posting some things back and forth on the SGA boards, feel free to read it guys, no conclusions yet. I think in the end we WILL be going with some type of point system for epics, it's just a question of what kind. I'm trying to make it as fair as I can for everyone and keeping in mind infrequent raiders. I am also trying to make it so this has no effect on non-epic loot so we can continue like we always have in that regard.
Thanks Leap. I'm glad you're the rep and not me as I'd have told them where to stick it long ago
WOW: Bounce
I have been avoiding posting on this. I personally do not cate for dkp, never have, never will. No matter what kind of spin you put on it, it sucks. Lately, I have been more casual than I would like, I just don't have time to raid as often as I would like. What little free time I do have, I try to spend at least some of it managing wife aggro. So like I said, I'm more casual than I would like, when we did MC, great, I was one of the top 2 pallies there attendance wise. In the long run, I might end up being at the bottom due to my availability. Basically I'm fooked at that point, and it would be like I was a newb again and unabled to roll on cool sh*t. This really pisses me off.
Wannabe priest with a sword....
You know, this isn't meant to rain on the GWJ guild's parade, but this and other recent guild drama are all reasons why I'm such a soloer in mmo's. I enjoy nice small fun grouping, but I've only ever been in one guild in my 7 years of mmo addiction that I found worthwhile. Why? It was a totally casual guild focused mostly on RP in Everquest, though we often went adventuring together just for the pure fun of it.
One of my favorite experiences with them was actually the way I met them. There was a random GM event going on in Everfrost, where the ice giants were marching on the city gate. There was the usual chaos going on, but amidst the chaos, just in front of the gates, was a group of four people (all level 40+, while I was merely around level 25) arranged in formation and standing fast awaiting the giants.
The leader was rp'ing as the commander (and the others referred to her as such, in fact), and I thought it looked like it would be a blast to join in, so I simply joined up in the line and saluted the commander, then placed myself at their service. To my surprise, they actually gave me a group invite, and when the giants reached the gates we went to town.
It was a blast. I died at least once that I recall, possibly twice, but man if that wasn't just a ton of fun. I ended up joining the guild shortly after, and we had several fun adventures over time until the time came that I quit EQ.
I've been in too many guilds to recall in various mmo's since then, and all have all fallen short of my hopes for good casual fun. Either they end up becoming raiding or pvp-centric, or there's too much immaturity and/or melodrama, or they somehow misunderstood what I meant when I said that I am a very casual player who mostly enjoys going solo but is up for fun grouping on occasion - interpreting that somehow to mean that I want to join a guild that practically expects you to group every minute you're online as well as spend as much of your time as you can powerlevelling the lowbies (despite my standard disclaimer that I don't like powerlevelling or being powerlevelled).
I'd love gaming with other goodjers, but mmo guild environments simply aren't the best place for my preferences, methinks.
I miss the UT2k4 days!
I'm very split on this subject. On the one hand I can see the need for it in a 40 man raid made up of three or more different factions who don't really know each other. There has to be some kind of system in place other than /roll to determine distribution. Some guys make more runs than others which should be a factor in this scenario. When you don't really know the person that won the item that well it makes it easy to rise to anger over the loss.
In a perfect world we would have 40+ 60's capable of making these runs and we could resolve these issues in house. That would probably eliminate DKP for us and get back to something more acceptable to everyone (if your there and contributing you have a shot). I recall Bear bringing up the possibility of GWJ raids a while back and I think we've still got a ways to go to get close to that. Sadly more so since some people have left for UF (which apparently just split). We probably have about 8 or 9 people making their way up the level ladder (myself included). Hopefully as more people get up to the top it opens up some options for us.
There's really no easy answer to this - I see pro's and con's on both sides of it.
"Fault always lies in the same place...with those foolish enough to lay blame"*
-Cort
*Unless you're Amazon or Funcom, in which case, SCREW YOU.
Hey Leap, what about a per-guild, per-class type system?
Instead of each character earning points, each guild earns points, based on how many raids have been attended by a given class in a given guild? Then the guild itself can deal with distributing a given item?
I dunno, just thinking out loud.
"And my son, too, thinks everything is a launchpad, every bug a meal, and every sunny day a reason to take all your clothes off and roll around in the grass." - rabbit
Whick guild attending the raid gets the item to distribute later then?
I don't think I've ever said this sentence before, but man would I love to hump that butterfly.-- KrazyTaco
One phone call and you're melting like butter over my kettle pop. -- Edwin to Mex
2005 GWJFFL2 Champion
From my limited experience, the zero-sum dkp system that has been brought up before seems pretty fair. The people who have been showing up will get first crack, but their dkp goes down fairly dramatically, allowing new people to get items.
I thought of that too Duc except not broken down to a class level, I will bring it up tonight.
Farscry - drama is what you make of it.
DeepSea - I've said this a bunch, 6 months ago, 3 months ago - GWJ will never be able to do 40 man runs on our own and most likely will not be able to field 20 regular 60s at a repeatable time.
But people in the guild wanted to at least see these dungeons, so we formed a guild alliance to allow the opportunity. Obviously it's not as optimal as if we could do it all ourselves but at least the option is there. 6 months ago we didn't even have a chance to go into MC.
Since we started the WoW guild we have had 14 regular 60s leave the guild for raid guilds.
Instead of the player's bidding/rolling/being-eligible, the guild would bid/roll/be-eligible.
It would work the same, except the points would be to each guild that brought class X to X # raids.
Basically, instead of Duclama earning Raid Points for going on a raid, GWJ Alliance would earn Paladin Raid Points when Duclama (and/or any other Paladin) went on a raid.
Paladin-rollable/biddable epic drops, if GWJ has enough Paladin Raid Points and someone present wants the item, tell the present guild leader, he bids/rolls/claims the item, on behalf of GWJ.
If GWJ wins, those Paladin Raid points are deducted or GWJ is sent to the end of the line or whatever.
So, if I go on 5 raids in a row, but miss one but Lyserg makes the one I miss, he might end up spending the points I'd accumulated for GWJ/GWJ Paladins. Or vice versa.
But if GWJ has a Paladin in each raid that happens, regardless of whether it's the same Paladin each time or not, we're earning GWJ Paladin Raid points constantly.
I guess this brings up one issue - how big a percentage of the SGA raids is GWJ?
If we're rather small, then even this isn't going to help the guild in particular much.
If we bring 2 paladins every time and there's a total of 8 paladins every time, then this system mostly gimps us as a guild.
If, on the other hand, we're a significant percentage of the raid, it could be a "good thing" overall, even if a certain GWJer might get to take advantage of the points earned by another GWJer.
"And my son, too, thinks everything is a launchpad, every bug a meal, and every sunny day a reason to take all your clothes off and roll around in the grass." - rabbit
Meh, but you're not putting in the effort though that others might be. Phat lewtz, means phat blocks of time sadly. Fact of the game... I wasn't too happy when a guy I'd been playing with for about a year, whispered to me "I'm glad I took time off while things got worked out", meaning he sat things out while the other guild folks and I worked to learn the fights. He gets easy loot now compared to all the wipes etc. of learning, he should just have same rolling rights as the rest of us? Once he runs enough to get 40-80pts sure, but not till then. Even then, my guild lets folks go into the negative at times, better to let folks have that gear to help the guild than to DE it.
I don't always like DKP but I tend to think its variants are generally the most fair. The only problem my guild has had had would be which classes can roll on certain items. Some folks weren't too happy that warriors got roll priority over pallys over drillborer disk shield even when those who rolled had enough points. On good runs with multi boss kills and good trash mob drops, its easy to get 15-18 dkp a run.
Look, I know I'm naive and simple-minded, thus the forum name, but I don't have a problem with the proposed loot system. I would like to see it apply to purples and above, like Leap suggested, but honestly, if you go to MC under the proposed system, you have a shot at loot, and the more times you go the better that shot. If you don't go to MC at all, you have no shot. It seems silly to me to NOT go to MC because of this system, cause, if you go, you get points and bid on stuff that drops...and you can even go into negative points if something drops that you really really want. It seems kinda greedy to me to expect more than that. The raids are really fun, seeing that kind of cooperative effort and everyone learning their role and gettting better each time is a reward in itself. I hope we can continue. (read: I hope we have the numbers on the sign-ups)
The only way we'll keep our level 60's who want to raid is with a guild alliance, and that's gonna mean a loot system. I don't imagine anyone out there is more fair minded than Dusty and Zilt. They've both been very supportive and work hard to keep the thing together.
Leap, thanks for voicing our concerns, and just taking care of us in general, you are a frickin' awesome guild leader.
look at it from the other end, say you are the guy who's been on 15 of 20 of them runs and haven't gotten a purple yet, some fill-in alt rolls on in and gets it, never to be seen on another run again. I'd be pretty pissed personally and I think the person trying to organise the runs would be as well.
To put a GWJ spin on it, think how much people are willing to help Leaping out on whatever he needs to do because he is always there for the guild, he doesn't bail on a run because he wants to do X instead of Y, he's almost always willing to help Z go to X to try for a Q, even though the chances of mage loot dropping suck etc.
Overall we need to make the group as a whole better at doing the big runs, so that it is easier to do the big runs, so in the long term everyone gets more out of them.
For instance Dusty is on 9/10 raids (probably higher than that) so any gear he gets helps 9/10 of the time, meanwhile JoeBob (some made up warrior) goes on 2/10 raids.
or the tranq shot, i would rather the first one go to a hunter who is going to be there the next time we do the run, that way we have 2 hunters with tranq not just 1.
And just for the record, i didn't realise I had 3 runs in when we went, so I fully expected to get nothing from the run. (there were 6 rogues there, and I am pretty sure a few of them had way more than I)
"Also, I have four legs and am covered in wool. Baa!" *Legion* reveals his inner furry.