Conference Call

GWJ Conference Call Episode 438

Hand of Fate, Homeworld Remastered, Kingdom Hearts 2.5, Grim Fandango, Mashing Up Game Design, Your Emails and more!

This week Shawn and Julian are joined by Lara Crigger to talk about her new podcast, genre mashups and more!

To contact us, email [email protected]! Send us your thoughts on the show, pressing issues you want to talk about or whatever else is on your mind. You can even send a 30 second audio question or comment (MP3 format please) if you're so inclined.

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Show credits

Music credits: 

No Regard - Echoside - http://echosidetracks.bandcamp.com/ - 31:34

Jazz - Echoside - http://echosidetracks.bandcamp.com/ - 45:39

Intro/Outtro Music - Ian Dorsch, Willowtree Audioworks

Comments

That was a great episode, it's always nice to have Lara back on! ("boo Lara said nobody ever" indeed!).

Loved the Bioshock/Mass Effect/Dragon Age crossover question, because it reminded me of some pretty awesome fan art I saw on DeviantArt. The artist would render DA characters in the spirit of the world of ME and vice versa, he was super talented. I do think I remember seeing fan theories floating around about DA & ME existing in the same universe, but those were pretty whacky. I agree, though: would such a monstrosity even be playable? I'm not so sure.
Completely agree with you three on the mage-templar war and the prospect of revisiting the Elven Wars in DA... Wow, would be so cool.

Also really loved that Grim Fandango got talked about. I haven't gotten my hands on the remastered version yet (I will), but it's one of my favorite adventure games, one of my favorite games of all time. The music, the story, the writing. Oh wow, the writing, the writing is brilliant. I agree 100% with Lara on the spoiler-free walkthrough. Some of those 90s puzzles are just way out there and not worth the headaches.

Really fantastic episode! Lara is awesome, and the topic was compelling. I immediately thought of Quest For Glory, which married Adventure Game mechanics to basic RPG mechanics in a wholly satisfying and unqiue way. That particular combination felt so good and so right that I'm amazed it hasn't been replicated or iterated on much past the Quest for Glory series.

I've been dying to play Heroine's Quest which seems to use the same mechanics (but with a focus on a female protagonist instead of QfG's default male) but alas it is Windows only. One of these days I'll have a non-Mac gaming PC...

Regarding Hand of Fate: I'm guessing Shawn and Julian hadn't played much of it before recording the podcast. While I agree that the combat is a bit clunky and the weakest part of the game, the combat itself is only easy during the early stages of the story mode. Once you get to around the 7th or 8th boss and beyond, the combat can get rather difficult, especially if you haven't drawn a good weapon card and/or ability card. This is due not only to the increasing difficulty of the bosses, but also the increasing difficulty of the normal enemies. On the normal enemy cards, there are red dots on the corner of the card, which represent the difficulty or "level" of that enemy, with 1 being the easiest and 3 being the hardest. Additionally, previous boss cards that you've defeated will randomly appear in combat encounters on future playthroughs, often accompanied by one or two normal enemy cards.

I'm currently trying to kill the 9th boss, and on multiple occasions I've had to fight 8 (or more) enemies along with a boss, which is definitely not easy.

Also, Lara was spot on with Puzzle Quest being an excellent example of mashing up two very different genres and doing it very well.

Not easy or easy doesn't really address the whole "not fun" part of it. It's a bad, clunky approximation of the Batman style of combat.

Isn't the debate about what games are considered "old school" the same as figuring out when songs get shuffled over from modern radio stations to oldie stations?

Found a Bioware Japan studio and they'll find a way to cross those properties over.

Can't promise the female character designs will be respectful, though.

I don't care whether the game is good or bad. I will only think of

IMAGE(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-P59g1eVbNkA/UiYCvSgsHXI/AAAAAAAAFCY/V6mNtQA9p3E/s1600/manos2.jpg)

As for Homeworld, I'm really excited because I put some money down but won't have a chance to play it for awhile. It is in my top-5 games ever along with original Deus Ex, as I don't know of an RTS that does 3D better, along with of course the excellent story, music, and narration (was the hybrid in Battlestar Galactica: Razor). I don't expect to be disappointed. Was I the only GWJer who backed some independents Kickstarting to win the IP? Glad it looks like Gearbox didn't f*ck up something....for once.

Keithustus wrote:

and narration (was the hybrid in Battlestar Galactica: Razor).

I. Did. Not. Know that.

Certis wrote:

Not easy or easy doesn't really address the whole "not fun" part of it.

Is it not clear that I was only addressing your and/or Julian's claim that the combat was "easy"? Like I said, the combat gets significantly harder when you reach the second half of the story mode. For some people, the combat's progressive increase in difficulty and challenge may be considered fun.

To bring it around to the podcast's topic, is Hand of Fate's combat as fun as the combat in the Batman games? Clearly not, but the inclusion of it in Hand of Fate can result in someone thinking that it contributes to the fun of playing the game. Similarly, is Puzzle Quest's character progression as fun as the character progression of any good RPG? Of course not, but if Puzzle Quest did not have its character progression, would be it as fun as it is?

Is it not clear that I was only addressing your and/or Julian's claim that the combat was "easy"?

On a second reading of your post it is. Whoops! Apologies.

I'd rather see a few things done well rather than a dozen things dropped on the table like a pile of dead fish. Puzzle Quest is a great example of a few design ideas implemented in a way that informs each other and are tightly focused. Something like a brawler has a lot more to do with combat flow, reactivity of the enemies and really well tuned controls. The bad stuff in that case stands out a lot more because there's a lot of moving parts you have to get just right.

I don't fault them for trying but if someone is going to spend all that time designing and implementing something I'd just as soon they made the fun bits even better instead. It's asking a lot and leaning pretty heavily on the wisdom of hindsight but there you go.

Ya, if they could digitize people's whole voices so I could hear them read any audiobook, blog, driving directions, etc., I would go with any of these three:

Campbell Lane (Homeworld, BSG: Razor, Gundam Wing)

Christopher Lee (Star Wars Eps. II & III, Lord of the Rings)

Peter Thomas (PBS Nova, tons of commercials, History Channel, etc.)

Of course, I wouldn't fault anyone for reflexively thinking of the following voices. They're just not my favorites:
James Earl Jones (Darth Vader, "This is CNN")
Morgan Freeman (Shawshank Redemption, Through the Wormhole) [note: link is a parody]
Barry White (singer) [NSFW]
Leonard Cohen (singer)

I always remember the old Infiltrator on the C64 when someone talk about genre mash-ups

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infiltr...

Half of the game you played in a Helicopter sim, and half was a mix of arcade + graphic adventure. So good!

There was so much to this episode to comment on. Unpossible to do it on the phone, so here it all is now that I'm not at work. PREPARE YOURSELVES FOR MY NOVEL.

In regards to mashing up, I find it amusing that Secret of Mana was mentioned but not considered as a mash-up. I've actually come to wonder if genre mash-ups aren't taken as being innovative or interesting unless they're "physically" different, either. Take, for example, everyone's favorite Darksiders (take a drink). I liked taking more action-oriented games like God of War and fusing them with The Legend of Zelda and a bit of Prince of Persia. The weakest part of Zelda for me has always been the combat, whereas the weakest part of a God of War or similar games is in the level and puzzle design. The dash of Prince of Persia is just gravy to further opening up the level design opportunities.

Of course, I suppose once you get that portal gun item the word "derivative" starts to be a bit more accurate. Still, I found that using all of those familiar elements gave me the bare bones of a game I already knew I loved, but combined all these other elements to make it better.

If you're mashing up puzzle games and role-playing games, no one cares if you're using common tropes and derivative elements from either genre. You're mashing together such two seemingly different game styles that the mash-up at all overcomes the tired cliches. So even if the puzzle aspect is "just Bejeweled", the RPG elements make it more than just a reskinning of Bejeweled.

That's my guess, at least. I haven't played Puzzle Quest. I don't think I had a DS at the time so I didn't get to play Puzzle Quest, just heard about it. Personally, I love it when games combine elements from multiple genres, or even rip something directly out of another game to drop it into another style (see: me being okay with Darksiders completely stealing the idea of the Portal gun). I do, however, believe that you'll often lose something in the process if the developer isn't careful. Without the proper focus and resources, you can ultimately just have chunks of gameplay akin to a child trying to fuse LEGO bricks with Lincoln Logs and Erector Sets. You might get something, and parts of it might be clever, but the odds of it being pretty are kind of low.

In regards to the religion question, I think Dragon Age is the only time I've really felt as if my own personal faith influenced my attitude towards certain characters. In most games, choices of good vs. evil are ultimately "Do you want to be nice or do you want to be a prick?", and being a prick in games is rarely satisfying. It's hardly even cathartic. You can never get behind the mentality of the evil act because it typically boils down to "I'm an asshole, so I'm going to do something illegal or morally questionable in a very obvious manner". No thank you.

But Dragon Age: Origins has continuously surprised me in how much I absolutely loathe Morrigan's character and my fondness for Leliana. Now, I don't necessarily loathe Morrigan because I think she's a poorly written or executed character. I loathe her because she reminds me of people that, in real life, pissed me off to extremes. She is selfish and her world view goes against everything I stand for. But I did not choose to romance Leliana because she was "the good choice". I romanced Leliana because, even though she got a bit too naive in her spirituality for my tastes (and at times a bit looney), I was drawn to the philosophical discussions of her faith and where that led her on her own journey of redemption and morality. It was familiar because of my own religious beliefs, and as such it made Leliana much more relateable in a positive manner while my religious beliefs, and all the morality and philosophy that comes with it, made Morrigan deplorable.

I kind of wish more games would go for more relateable good/evil style differences, ones where you can even question the validity of using words like good/evil. For whatever reason, most games, even after years of complaint, at a point where Quick Time Events are less and less common, we've got the most simplistic sense of morality and a child's ideas of evil. That so many like Morrigan, a character that, to me, is evil, is also so well liked means Bioware did a good job with her.

Finally, in regards to "Retro", I kind of grew sick of that term real quick after it was plastered on Hot Topic t-shirts. I've said it before, but I think my generation (and perhaps some of the years before and after, seeing as even the lines between "generations" are becoming more and more narrow) have an obsession with nostalgia and "feeling old". How often do I need to be reminded of how old I was when Jurassic Park came out? Or how much time has passed since Independence Day or Men in Black hit theaters? Yes, I'm an adult. That happens.

So it's no surprise that kids are going to be calling Xbox 360 games "retro" at this point. I'm much more fond of separating things by ages, as Lara was suggesting. Pong and Atari, right up to the game crash would be what I'd call the "Founders Age", personally. I'd rather avoid identifying it as Golden Age or Silver Age or anything that would hint one age was the best era of gaming. I'd then stick NES, SNES and Genesis into its own era, followed by the Saturn, Playstation, Dreamcast, Jaguar and N64. The early days of 3D. What then becomes debatable is where you'd include PS2, Xbox and GameCube, where companies were starting to master 3D, but there was still a lot of experimentation and figuring things out going on. I'd say we're currently in a single, surprisingly long age of game development and design with Xbox 360, PS3 and Wii tying very much into PS4, XOne and WiiU. Of course, that's largely because technology isn't exactly pushing the changes in the gaming field anymore. Indies are, as has marketing. So this era could, in the future, be defined very differently.

But figuring out "what's retro"? Bleh. Let's just settle on something not being able to be called a classic until it is two console generations old at least? Please?

I am playing Persona Q, which marries the exploration and dungeon crawling of Etrian Odyssey with the leveling and combat of the Persona 3/4 games, with a generous dose of fanservice. As someone who loved Persona 3 and was lukewarm on EO, this game really hits for me.

Atlus also has Devil Survivor 2 3DS and Etrian Mystery Dungeon coming soon, which are two other mashups, so it seems like they stumbled on something.

On retro/vintage: I have a kid brother. He's a lot younger than me and a big game fan. He looks at my old SNES and N64 and PSX games like ancient relics of a forgotten age. Rather than making me feel old, it's kind of awesome.

During the discussion about Homeworld Remastered, someone mentioned a simple space RTS, maybe you only controlled a single ship? But could not remember the name. Does anyone know what game they were thinking of?
Thanks
Mike

ccesarano wrote:

In regards to mashing up, I find it amusing that Secret of Mana was mentioned but not considered as a mash-up.

Likewise, Total War games. The Three Moves Ahead crew can't even agree whether they're turn-based strategy games with realtime combat, or realtime strategy games packaged in a turn-based world.

ccesarano wrote:

I haven't played Puzzle Quest. I don't think I had a DS at the time so I didn't get to play Puzzle Quest

Insufficient excuse: didn't you have a PC, Mac, X360, PS3, PS2, PSP, Wii, or iPhone?

ccesarano wrote:

I'd say we're currently in a single, surprisingly long age of game development and design with Xbox 360, PS3 and Wii tying very much into PS4, XOne and WiiU. Of course, that's largely because technology isn't exactly pushing the changes in the gaming field anymore.

My Bold Prediction: 10-20 years from now we will call 2015 the beginning of the Oculus Age.

ccessaran wrote:

Unpossible

Props....excellent nonword usage. Will emulate in appropriate circumstances.

Keithustus wrote:
ccesarano wrote:

I'd say we're currently in a single, surprisingly long age of game development and design with Xbox 360, PS3 and Wii tying very much into PS4, XOne and WiiU. Of course, that's largely because technology isn't exactly pushing the changes in the gaming field anymore.

My Bold Prediction: 10-20 years from now we will call 2015 the beginning of the Oculus Age.

Know what? I meant to write in that I imagined that would be the next age, but got distracted while typing this up at work and forgot all about it. Humbug.

mmk01569 wrote:

During the discussion about Homeworld Remastered, someone mentioned a simple space RTS, maybe you only controlled a single ship? But could not remember the name. Does anyone know what game they were thinking of?
Thanks
Mike

Flotilla. There's a free demo.

It's also available on 360.

Jonman wrote:

Flotilla. There's a free demo.

Awesome, thanks! mmk was not alone wanting to know.

Keithustus wrote:
Jonman wrote:

Flotilla. There's a free demo.

Awesome, thanks! mmk was not alone wanting to know.

I'm assuming that's the one they were talking about. It fits the bill.

There are so many amazing franken-games.

Dungeon of the Endless has been my most recent favourite example... Turn based, tower defence, RPG Rogue-like-lite.

Looking back we have that forgotten PC oddball called Machines, an RTS where you could pop in to any of your units to control them from a first person or third person mode.

Odama on the game cube gave us tactical pinball wargaming with voice commands.

Going a little less extreme, I consider Master of Magic to be a franken-game that spawned a genre, blending the tactical combat elements and empire building of.

Tyops wrote:

Dungeon of the Endless has been my most recent favourite example... Turn based, tower defence, RPG Rogue-like-lite.

That was what I immediately thought of!

kabutor wrote:

I always remember the old Infiltrator on the C64 when someone talk about genre mash-ups

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infiltr...

Half of the game you played in a Helicopter sim, and half was a mix of arcade + graphic adventure. So good!

I remember playing as Jimbo Baby on the C-64. I also remember not being particularly good at that game. I played it at a friend's house, so didn't get a lot of time in it.

NathanialG wrote:
Tyops wrote:

Dungeon of the Endless has been my most recent favourite example... Turn based, tower defence, RPG Rogue-like-lite.

That was what I immediately thought of!

How could I forget Henry Hatsworth... amazing action adventure *puzzle* platformer. There are some really decent franken games out there.

Thanks Jonman, I'll check it out.

The Grim Fandango conversation reminds me of a recent episode of Top Score that discusses the remastered music with its composer. Good stuff.

My mash-up nominee goes to 10,000,000, which combines Connect-N and RPG-skill building. The positive feedback on GWJ #304 (coincidentally, another show with Lara - yay!) got me to buy it. The game is fun enough to finish.

They explain the ship formations in the Homeworld manual.
IIRC.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Brutal Legend. That game was the topic of a Sean Sands column years ago on the subject of genre mashups. It's an action RPG real time strategy tower defense rhythm game.

doubtingthomas396 wrote:

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Brutal Legend. That game was the topic of a Sean Sands column years ago on the subject of genre mashups. It's an action RPG real time strategy tower defense rhythm game.

It was the first thing I thought of after our recording session had ended. Especially given that we'd talked about Grim Fandango earlier in the show! I'm so ashamed. *shakes head*

Can we start getting a link to the thread of the week in the show notes please?

Here is this weeks for anyone else having trouble finding it:

A Genie Appears...