Why I won't touch Valve's games with a 10-foot pole
Tuesday, November 23rd, 2004 - 1:41pm
According to EvilAvatar.com, Valve has started banning people who were supposedly using pirated Half-Life 2 CD keys.
To be clear, I'm not a pirate. I'm so paranoid about someone deciding that I'm a pirate that I refuse to let my wife install file-sharing software on either of our computers; that I immediately delete every MP3 of a song if I've sold the CD; that I won't download even the games that even the original developers have said to go ahead and download. Anti-piracy? Very much so.
My fear is that, for reasons outside my control, the game that I've legitimately paid for could become a very expensive coaster. If, say, some idiot cracker on the web gets hold of my key (or randomly generates it)? If, say, Marvel starts going after them because someone created a Spiderman mod, and they feel legally obliged to ban everyone who's used it? If I've legally bought a legitimate used box copy, and the seller decides to engage in some piracy on the side with my CD key? If, say, I post some unflattering Gordon fanfic and they decide I'm an unacceptable user? If I post some juicy gossip about their next game that they wish hadn't gotten out?
I know there are a lot of Steam supporters here. Fantastic - hope you have absolutely no problems and enjoy every good gaming moment you have coming from the talented folks at Valve. I know there are a lot of anti-piracy supporters that hail the online activation/authentication as a step ahead for the industry, and I admire their devotion to stomping out pirates and their trust in these companies.
I just draw the line at putting my sparse, very hard-earned gaming $$ in the hands of a company that can shut off my game whenever they feel like it, with absolutely no recourse whatsoever available to me. I'll put up with it for a good MMORPG, but I refuse to do this for a single-player game. I envy posters of the lovely Half-Life 2 screens here, because they won't be appearing on my monitor. And if this becomes the industry standard, then, well... hello, console-only gaming.
Comments?
Everything can be debated, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's debatable.
--Chuck Klosterman, Fargo Rock City
I think you''re pushing it. A lot. I paid for my copy and I''m not worried about this the slightest.
Xbox Live: MrGreen
PSN: MrGreenPSN
Wii: 4859 2... oh f*ck it.
uh..your overly paranoid..
And yes...you better get used to console only gaming.
And perhaps not even that further down the road...
Aint nothing new about the world order..it's been playing since the day they put George Washington on a quarter
85's face the truth you're too dumb.
http://www.myspace.com/armyofthepharaohs
/makes a note for Valve: Killer Tomatos must have something to hide.
Xbox Live tag Gorilla800lbs
Sounds a bit far out to me... if you''re that anti-piracy you should be fine
WOW: Bounce
Come on KillerT. You seem to be worried about an awful lot of ""ifs.""
Plus, once you register, isn''t there an option to turn off the Steam access/check for single player gaming?
WoW Baelgun: Omusa, Spits
I agree with you, Tomato. No way will I buy HL2 if I have to run their spyware to make the game work. I''m still ticked at Blizzard for forcing me to take their nerfs in order to get bug fixes in Diablo II.
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Be prepared for alot of ""Yeah, it sucks but I bought it anyway""
This has been the thing with Steam from day one, to give Valve total control over how you use the game. The funny thing is that this will be pretty much universally reported as good news and great for the industry, but it''ll take alot of abuse before any of the scenarios you listed above come to the public eye when they happen. People don''t like bad news.
Besides, piracy is like alot of other things, you can do alot in the name of anti-piracy that has very little to do with piracy itself. Nobody will ask questions, and you''ll be cheered along the entire way.
All I''ve heard on this one was from Voodoo Extreme that they banned 20,000 people who were using one cd-key. I thought they had a system where you could only register the cd-key once? Or three times, whatever random number they set it to. So I''m not really sure how that could be accurate. Does anyone have more details about this one?
"Poor Eli Nooo... *child starts crying*"
"Come on now, there's no need to make that kind of noise. It sounds awful and you'll upset other people." - Ionae from Spirit Engine 2
So if you have to reformat your hard drive so you re-d/l via steam and re-register the same cd key, they''ll ban you?
XBox Live: SwampYankee68
STEAM: SwampYankee
hooboy...ok Steam is in no way Spyware..show me some proof that its doing any snooping of ANY kind without your consent of some sort. If you have no proof then pass the tinfoil.
Second.. if you ""purchase"" HL2 through Steam its then tied to your steamaccount.. as long as you tie it to a valid email that you know you will keep for X years then your ok.
There is no CD Key to magically get hacked by invisible Bill Gates spies in your PC or be stolen by unscrupolous software store vendors.
Man...if your losing sleep over what Valve and Steam may be doing to your PC or the fact you may be out $50(some day) then I suggest you never take a peek at any of your IRA/401K statements EVER! Your head may explode.
Aint nothing new about the world order..it's been playing since the day they put George Washington on a quarter
85's face the truth you're too dumb.
http://www.myspace.com/armyofthepharaohs
NO!
Aint nothing new about the world order..it's been playing since the day they put George Washington on a quarter
85's face the truth you're too dumb.
http://www.myspace.com/armyofthepharaohs
How many MMORPGs have banned user accounts for writing inappropriate fanfic or talking about the game/company in disparaging ways? What makes you think this is any different?
People say the same thing about DRM and Movies, Music, ect. all the time. Doesn''t seem to be happening. There''s always a crack, and people will always turn to it the second something in the DRM system doesn''t go the way they expect it to. The market has always shown that the fewer restrictions you can put on the customer, the more they like it and the more money you make (see iTunes Music Store vs. Every other music store before iTunes). I don''t see how everyone thinks market forces are going to take a backseat to paranoid executives.
"Poor Eli Nooo... *child starts crying*"
"Come on now, there's no need to make that kind of noise. It sounds awful and you'll upset other people." - Ionae from Spirit Engine 2
<Shields ears>
No need to yell!
XBox Live: SwampYankee68
STEAM: SwampYankee
I made no mention of anything like that.. KT said he wont buy software that is distributed like Valve.. well all signs show that more and more companies will try and move to stiffer anti-piracy stances which may involve even ""worse"" methods than Steam.
So...my advice is if one refuses to partake in those kind of measures then move to Console gaming..
But I would imagine that as console gaming becomes more and more popular and embraces more online gaming that soon enough more intrusive methods of anti-piracy may end up in consoles (especially if the line between a traditional console and PC continues to blur)
Blizzard has been banning Diablo and Warcraft/Starcraft keys for years..
the 1-2% VOCAL minority who get pissed about this obviously must be a drop in the bucket based on their software sales.
Aint nothing new about the world order..it's been playing since the day they put George Washington on a quarter
85's face the truth you're too dumb.
http://www.myspace.com/armyofthepharaohs
Steam connects and informs Valve every time you play single player, and it has the possibility to inform Valve for other kinds of things you do in the game too. No, that part isn''t paranoia, checking your authentication informs Valve of what you''re currently doing with the Steam-enabled game. Also, it checks your system for other software for cheat detection. I do not know if the process list is sent to Valve, but it is checked by Steam constantly.
Again, untrue. Everything has a key, and just because you didn''t have to type one in that doesn''t mean there isn''t an authentication key on your HDD somewhere, there has to be. That''s the way DRM works. Though I don''t know if it''s feasible to get on someone''s authenticated Steam and use their authenticated key somewhere else. Obviously there''s some way to do something similar because there''s pirated copies running around attached to Steam accounts.
How does not buying HL2 equate to losing sleep? It''s just a game, and if somebody doesn''t want to buy it I don''t understand how that''s any bigger of a deal than someone who actually wants to buy it.
"Poor Eli Nooo... *child starts crying*"
"Come on now, there's no need to make that kind of noise. It sounds awful and you'll upset other people." - Ionae from Spirit Engine 2
How to protect yourself
Mr T broke the speed of light in the A-Team van because he wanted to prove that quantum physics was a bunch of Jibba Jabba.
Those methods are DRM, which is what I was specifically referring to with regards to Movies or Music. The last part is exactly what you''re talking about, all these ""worse"" anti-piracy measures are restrictions on how and when you can use the game. The market has always chosen less restriction when given a choice, and I still don''t see how you can think the market will move in the exact opposite direction because of paranoid entertainment executives and developers.
"Poor Eli Nooo... *child starts crying*"
"Come on now, there's no need to make that kind of noise. It sounds awful and you'll upset other people." - Ionae from Spirit Engine 2
Now that''s funny
WOW: Bounce
I''ll have to find the article but I saw something last week saying that valve themselves released a ''crack tool'' on the p2p networks to help track this sort of thing. That could explain how one key activated multiple accounts for the game.
EDIT - Found it.
Now it is a game but here are my biggest gripes with the system.
-You can''t buy the game, beat the single player and ebay it off to someone else. The used game market is non-existent in the future.
-At some point in the future Valve may decide to spend their money hat on all the coke in the world and go out of business or be bought out or just plain decide that 6 years from now that they''re not going to support HL2 and pull the plug.
-While we can all point and blame MS for bringing activation to the mainstream, at least they have 1-800 numbers available for people that don''t have internet to register with. Valve can''t say that.
In the short term, yes it''s great to be able to give ''more'' of my money to valve than vivendi. Yes, it also sucks that I don''t get a bigger discount for that ''contribution''. The long term looks bleak for aftermarket though.
EDIT - I don''t fault valve for trying to catch ''the bad guys''. I''ll most likely get the game for x-mas and I certainly plan on installing it, steam even fixed itself for me a few days before the game got released, it wasn''t stuck at 69% like it had been for the past two months. That said I wouldn''t mind to see a price reduction for online payment since they don''t have to worry about manufacturing and publishing fees.
Do you ever walk alone like a drifter in the dark?
I was under the impression you could sell your login info to someone and that is how you could make some money back. HL2 isn''t tied to a set PC, just a Steam account.
Xbox Live: Kooter06
I give up...
Certis is there someway you can automatically hide any thread that has the word Steam in it from my profile..
I dont want to ever see them again.. and I''m too weak to avoid arguing pointlessly over them.
Aint nothing new about the world order..it's been playing since the day they put George Washington on a quarter
85's face the truth you're too dumb.
http://www.myspace.com/armyofthepharaohs
Let''s worry that the sky is falling too.
Steam? What is it doing to me that is so harmful? Nothing.
I find safety in numbers with all the millions who are on the thing. The chances that the worst possible scenario happened and someone at Valve is spying on a computer cause they have their own hack built into steam and that it''s my computer that they are doing it to are pretty frickin slim. 1 in a few million at best. YOur chances of other much worse things happening in your life are by far greater.
Anti-Piracy measures are a lot more effective when it can use the internet. Just ask modded Xbox owners. I''ll agree that CD-Checking crap has only been a major PITA and probably never prevented anything though.
Xbox Live: MrGreen
PSN: MrGreenPSN
Wii: 4859 2... oh f*ck it.
Its very comforting to know that if Valve were to cease running Steam, maybe because of bankruptcy for example (ya not likely), that there is a community of talented people who will ensure you can still play your game.
I''m assuming you bought Windows then - and MS could turn that off for you whenever they feel like it.
[Edit: Sorry - probably not true -worst they could do is make it difficult to get their updates]
I''ve heard MS has been banning people from Halo 2 if they have mod chips. Not that if MS does it - its ok or anything. I''d trust Valve more.
They also send you an email showing proof of purchase. Print that and store it away with your other receipts.
Well if Valve were to screw over enough people - there could be a class action suit. There are probably less drastic forms of recourse as well.
Bottom line is your fears are unfounded - to the point where I''d prescribe some pirating of software as a cure to your paranoia.
It is the habit of every aggressor nation to claim that it is acting on the defensive. - Jawaharlal Nehru
That statement literally cannot be correct if they''ve banned 20K people using the same key. There''s something else going on here.
If there''s another industry that''s allowed to remotely shut off access to something you''ve legitimately purchased whenever they feel like it (not just whenever you''ve violated the terms of a signed contract) with no recourse, I''d be very interested in finding out about it.
Again, I have zero sympathy for pirates. My fear is that legitimate users will be labeled ""pirates"", and people will jeer at them even as they insist that they''ve done nothing wrong.
For those who think I''m paranoid, that exact thing is happening right now - there are banned people who''re posting scans of the register receipts that they purchased Half-Life 2 on, and saying they''e not pirates. The mob on the boards, of course, screams ""YOU MUST BE BECAUSE YOU''VE BEEN LABELED A PIRATE!"". Ah, the magic of circular logic... There''s not even the semblance of a balanced system here. Just an awfully big, indiscriminate net that may be catching some non-pirates along the way.
Everything can be debated, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's debatable.
--Chuck Klosterman, Fargo Rock City
No. They are banning known pirated keys, and keys from pirated key generators.
I''ve reinstalled HL several times. Not one issue with Steam, ever.
Blog: GameFinance
Twitter: justinmwhitaker
Your paranioa is preventing you from playing one of the best games ever made. Better you than me I guess.
It goes based on Steam account. So you could re-format, re-download Steam and log in using your account, redownload all games associated with that account, and keep playing no problem. This is how you would do it if you wanted to install the game on two computers, or if you buy a new computer. If, for some reason, you needed to change Steam accounts, I think you''d have to contact Valve to get your program authorizations transferred. Not sure though.
As to this whole banning thing, I agree with Killer-T. I''ve seen too many cases of honest users getting hosed to trust any company, even Valve. But, more than that, they''re disabling steam as a whole. This means that if you pirate (or they think you do,) HL2, none of your other Steam programs will work, regardless of whether or not you''ve paid for them. If you steal a Sony TV and get caught, you pay the price. And nowhere in the course of punishing you do they come to your house and take away everything made by Sony, or ban you from ever buying anything else from Sony.
"PEACE ON EARTH. GOOD WILL TO MEN. PUBLIC SHELTER. ADMISSION 50¢"
Not for lack of trying (see copy-protected CDs). Yes, so far there has ""always been a crack"". No, you should not always expect that to be the case. Wait until both the computing platform AND content use DRM together. The point isn''t that there will be an uncrackable protection. The point is that it will continue to get more and more complex, until reaching a point where it is not feasible for most people to do the crack.
Because those executives have repeatedly shown a penchant for ignoring what the market has always shown. The RIAA continues to try to introduce copy-protected CDs into the market. They have tried to strong-arm Apple into hiking iTMS prices (which are already too high, but at least they''re a start). Apple''s downloads already use a DRM that, while not totally restrictive, is more restrictive than some would like. Valve is doing the exact opposite of ""fewer restrictions that you put on the customer"". PC games that don''t have some sort of inane copy-protection (many of which interfere with normal use) are rare.
Fewer restrictions is not at all the direction things are going. More restrictions is.
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I''m gonna try to buck the trend in this thread and say that if you''re worried about Steam, KT, don''t use it. Your concerns are valid, in so much as I can understand them, and you''re justified for not wanting to open yourself up to being called a software pirate. Digital delivery isn''t the way to go for you yet. And like you said, if it''s worked for others, good on them.
I don''t think I have a point to this post aside from just trying to stop the backlash or everyone calling you paranoid. It''s your money, do what you want with it.
"Even though that place should only be fifteen or twenty minutes away geographically, in actual practice - between the hours of four and seven - Redmond might as well orbit the Earth." - Tycho, Penny Arcade
All STEAM has done has driven the last nail into the coffin of the thought that you own the software. It has truly reminded me that the work is not yours, it is Valve''s and they are just letting you pay $50 for the priviledge of playing it for awhile.
If say 3 years down the road Valve decided to stop supporting it and pulls the plug on the registration servers, the game is dead for you.
If say two years from now they do not like one 5 minute sequence from the game and they remove it via a patch, too bad it is not yours they can do whatever they want. (sounds like George Lucas doesn''t it?)
If they decide that they do not want to support a certain sound card that 5% of their audience uses in the future, and change it via a patch, too bad it is not yours.
You are not buying software anymore, you are renting out the ability to play it for a finite time. Get used to it.
Edit: BTW: If this would have happened 12 years ago, imagine not being able to play X-COM, Jagged Alliance, Thief, or and Black Isle game anymore because the parent companies are dead and the verification servers are gone.
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