Things like that make me VERY angry. Casual divorce is not much of a concern of mine as I have no intention of ever getting married, though I do thing divorce should be an option. But cohabitation? deliberate childlessness?

They had better not even THINK about trying to legislate that. I realize this might just be one whacko in the article, but there ARE those Christian''s out there who do follow this line of thought. Hell, my parents do.

did this whacko really just say ""deliberate childlessness""... to think people listen to this drivel

And therin lies the problem. As a catholic, we sure can''t point fingers on morality, but we could all use a little acts, not not just mouthing the Apostolic creed and professing faith.

Divorce is also a spiritual term. In New Testaments, if I remember, divorces are recognized as uncool but acceptable.

I think in general our society is hopelessly devoted to a lack of commitment, which is the fundamental principle that binds marriage together. Marriage has become a joke, a whim, and a temporary arrangement.

I was married, had a child, and divorced by my 24th birthday, and I can honestly say that having a title attached hardly means anything in our society.

Commitment isn''t a piece of paper, it''s a willingness to stick with someone you love through all of life''s ups and downs, without leaving a trail of hurt and broken homes.

Please don''t. Not with the unnatural. It''s a silly, silly argument. The religious reasons, fine, whatever, but ""it''s unnatural"" is such an utterly nonsensical argument in the face of manned space flight, gay lions, bonobos and the bloody keyboards we''re typing on it makes me cry.

If we were having this discusson back in the 40''s, the homosexual argument would be completely turned around.

It''s easy to jump on the bandwagon and support same-sex marriages, because it''s taboo to mention anything other than support for it.

Pigpen, I applaud you for taking the road less travelled and not supporting it, as that is your belief. It is not racist, it is not filled with hate, it is simply your opinion. And it takes guts to not follow along with the tide like the rest of the media brainwashed folks.

Supporting gay-rights is not a sign of super-intelligence or liberal enlightenment. It does not all of a sudden make every person who disagrees with you a backwater yokel. It is simply the easiest stance you can take, and is hardly something to be proud of.

As for my stance, hey - there''s no harm done if two people want to live together. Consentual adults can do whatever they want as long as they don''t hurt people. I live just off of the most notoriously gay street in my province, so seeing same-sex couples being affectionate to one another doesn''t bother me one bit.

I think the problem that most people have with same-sex couples, is that they are perceived as being much less commited, and frequenly engaging in many sexual acts with many partners. And yes, HIV is an epidemic, and obviously this isn''t the case for many gay couples. However, I have met more homosexuals who are HIV positive than heterosexuals in my area. (My girlfriend is hair stylus, and yes there are a lot of gay hairdressers - it''s not a stereotype) This is not a blanket statement, this is just my unbiased observation.

But for every promiscuous homosexual, there is an equally promiscious heterosexual.

The problem I have is not with same-sex couples, it''s with the militant group that some are associated with. The gay rights movement has hidden agendas that go beyond simply allowing same-sex marriages, they want to influence much more of society. If my son decides to become a homosexual, I want him to figure that out on his own, not be taught this in school at an early age. Keep this political agenda out of our schools, and away from the fragile minds of our young ones. the great thing about the gay rights movement however, is that they can call it a hate crime the second anyone opposes them. To me that goes against the very freedom of speech they are hiding behind.

So there we have it. Do whatever you want in your own home, because obviously it makes you happy, and life is the pursuit of happiness. Don''t shove your political agenda down my throat like a door to door Jehova''s witness, and call hate crime when I disagree with your opinion.

(Also, I''m sure this thread will become very heated, but I know that everyone who reads GWJ is awesome - don''t let this get you angry towards any particular person - this is a good debate and discussion, don''t take it personally)

Thing is, I''d still be up in arms about it even if there were no gay lions, because...well, look around you. How much of what you see is ''natural''? Dying disgusting deaths from various diseases is natural. Treating them with penicillin and antibiotics isn''t. Computers are about as unnatural as you get, and I don''t think anyone here''s going to start speaking out against them because of that. The nuclear family is an unnatural construct. It''d be an impossible to maintain were we still ''natural'' hunter-gatherers. There''s nothing wrong with being unnatural. And where the hell do you draw the line between the two states anyway? Tools? Fire? Man-made materials? Or just anything new or different that makes people uncomfortable? Bah. If ''unnatural'' is the only argument you have against something, you have nothing.

(I know you''ve other objections, Pigpen. I''m afraid this moved into the territory of general rants long ago.)

Edited for much quotage.

hahaha...Alien...got a good laugh out of me with the ''general rants'' comment. Brought a tear to my eye...

That said, I love debate and the open society. I think society is strengthened by opposing viewpoints...but weakened what i often see happening happens...which is as Swat says, i.e, that its fine for the gay rights movement to shove tolerance and acceptance of their lifestyle down our throats, but to disagree with them for ''any'' reason is bigotry and should be put down.

I won''t go to the ''unnatural'' state of things...I can just go that from my religious viewpoint, and trust me, I''m no right wing religious nut (I often condemn them as much as i do the left...because Christianity is tolerance, and acceptance, and trying to show the world to do as I do...not just as I or the Bible says) - but...I find the gay movement offensive at how they want to enforce my acceptance of their lifestyle...which I will not do. Its not bigotry...its just my opinion. Bigotry would be racially motivated, while in my opinion (and I know their are hundreds of studies to the contrary, so no need to dig them up...haha) that being gay is not the same as being born of a certain race. To me (in my opinion) it is a choice (obviously heavily influenced by genes...)

I''m willing to turn the other cheek to what I find their offensive lifestyle, and give the live and let live mantra a chance, if the ''movement'' would stop shoving gay lifestyles as an acceptable and perfectly ''normal'' lifestyle choice. The majority of America feels the same way...let them live their life as they choose in private...but cross that line and try to march down my street in a parade proclaiming how great the lifestyle is, and how they should be able to be married as they choose, and you cross the line to what I want to teach my kids about morals, and virtue and the such.

And yes, I think the gay lifestyle by its ''underground'' image has led to see it as a promiscuous lifestyle...but in reality, its probably not more than the heterosexual lifestyle of many (I was a slut for many years myself...)...I think its just the image many of us grew up to believe and have seen through our ''colored spectacles''.

I can easily see homosexuals as being more promiscious, think about it. It''s a well known fact that males have a much higher sexual, physical drive than a female. Combine that with a gay coupling, and that''s double the fsking at any one time. So I think there is something to be said about gay males and a heightened promiscuity. And yes, before I hear the counter-point to my comments, there are exceptions to the rule, as there are horny females out there as well. But there''s no denying the incredible male sexual drive.

I always wondered why gay males are always glowing with a massive smile. If I was getting that kind of action everyday with my girlfriend, you''d need sunglasses to look at me.

And yes I''m saying this all with my tongue planted in cheek. Damn, scratch that comment..

That''s the funny thing about being born gay. There''s no way to prove that, yet it''s the most commonly used argument (Yet I''m sure you can dig up some statistic or junk science to prove differently). And that doesn''t explain how people can ""switch"" sides throughout their life.

Of course, everyone''s been told this by the media millions of times, so of course you will believe this as the truth.

I don''t understand why anyone would choose to be gay. It isn''t like being gay gets you an easy route through life.

Take a trip to Vancouver or San Fransisco some time..

Now, that''s what I like to see! Concrete arguments instead knee-jerk cries on unnaturalness!

To which I could now respond with either sympathy, because I''m not overly fond of people rubbing their sexuality in my face, be they alpha-male or über-fairy, or by calling you an oversensitive ninny if the obnoxiousness is slight. If I lived were you live that is. I don''t, so it''s rather difficult to argue either way.

On the other two points: I really don''t think a bunch of parading strangers are going to be much of an influence compared to a child''s parents. As for marriage, that ought to be up to the individual churches, right? As long as the various legal rights are in place, I''ll happily leave the spiritual bit to the private institutions that worry about it.

So, there are only male homosexuals then? You *are* aware that there is such a thing as lesbians right?

It''s a funny thing how the fuss about homosexuals tends focus on the men.

To chime in briefly, my ultimate motivation is happiness. I am happily married with a young daughter, and the product of 15 years of private, Catholic education. And I personally am all-for gay marriage...who cares who is involved as long as you are happy? If it has no impact on me, and you cause no troubles for me and mine, knock yourselves out...